TurnKey Core 12.0 RC optimized builds

AFAIK the vision is to cater to the 2 different markets/perspectives with 2 different appliance versions. One based on Debian, one on Ubuntu.

Debian release will be for rock solid stability and tried and tested security (as all repo packages are maintained by Debian and have security bugfixes backported). Even though it is TKL v12, the Debian release is based on Squeeze which was released over a year ago now and had package versions frozen ~6-8 mths before that so there is nothing new about them besides the bits TKL adds.

Ubuntu will be more middle ground aimed at people who prefer newer packages with more cutting edge stuff (although it will still date over time). The TKL v12 Ubuntu builds will be based on Ubuntu 12.04/Precise which is still in beta currently but will be released end of the month IIRC. So it will have much newer packages (until next Debian release anyway...) I'm not sure when we will see TKL Ubuntu based 12.x builds...

If the TKL devs end up having to tweak custom code that is not handled by  package management I don't think that there will be anyway to upgrade (other than to replicate the code). Hopefully though that shouldn't be an issue and the TKL guys will provide info on what changes (obviously the Debian base will remain the same).

I'd suggest that even if there isn't a 100% upgrade path unless you experience issues, then it wouldn't matter. The underlaying Debian OS will be the same regardless.

The other thing to consider is, that even in worst case scenario, you can migrate your data from 12.0RC to any future 12.x release with TKLBAM. Obviously it may require some tweaking if you go from this Debian based TKL to the as yet released v12.x Ubuntu based system, but if you stick to Debian is should be flawless.

So I would imagine that 64 bit appliances will be released. In fact it is possible that they will become the default. Most hardware should support it these days and some software (such as Apache) reportedly works much better in 64 bit.

By my understanding you are correct re Zimbra and the guys are definately still planning to do 64 bit builds. I think the plan is to get the 32 bit Debian builds out the door (updates of the current appliances) and a number of new ones. Then it'll be on to Ubuntu builds. I have encouraging them to bring out Ubuntu builds as 64 bit off the bat (so Zimbra can be included) but they haven't mad3 a decision on that yet AFAIK.

But i don't know how we'll go with that. IIRC the reason why the Hardy builds got removed from SF was on request of SF due to the volume of space they took up on the SF servers. So we'll have to wait & ee what happens.

The current 11.3 Lucid builds are very functional and I encourage TKL to maintain these as Legacy builds well into the future  (also tell folks who depend on them to make their own Archives).

Likely the same holds for the final Hardy Release though the passage of time, we all know, blurs some in memory.  No need, IMHO, to maintain much more than that, but perhaps I am missing some caveats.

Looking forward to the new releases.  Wish I had a bit more time to make some patches and do some testing.  Let us know though, if testing is sought.

As I imagine that any changes between the RC and Final will be minimal ( and hopefully should be available via apt anyway).

I like Debian for servers because of the testing and the fact that all packages are maintained(not just a subset as with Ubuntu) but even still none of my work is 'mission critical' so I'm happy enough with Ubuntu.

But for a desktop/laptop I agree that it is a bit too old for my liking. You may be better off using Debian testing (or a distro that does like Linux Mint Debian Ed - which does last time I checked). My favourite distro for sometime has been Bodhi Linux which for me is the best of all worlds. It is based on Ubuntu LTS but has backported (cutting edge) packages for popular apps (& the kernel). The current release is still based on 10.04 but the next release will be 12.04 based. And it uses E17 as default desktop... my favourite! :-)

As well as derivatives, and you're right, for those, I'd have to wait anyway. Or cook my own.

I hadn't thought about the Debian / Ubuntu differences much. I already knew that because of the desired "stability" property of Debian, it's a bit behind when it comes to being "cutting edge". I just recently installed a Debian system on my laptop, and although it's probably true that packages have undergone more testing than with (e.g.) Ubuntu, I'm a bit disappointed about the resulting lack of "cutting edge". Without too much hassle, that is, like the dependency hell that can apparently be the result of wanting to use 1 "cutting edge" package more recent than, say, 6 months old.

Maybe it's just my ignorance (there's a good chance there), but it looks like Ubuntu would be a "better" solution for me if I base my weighting scheme on the "cutting edgeness". So yes: I may want to wait for an updated TurnKey Ubuntu-based release.

If it's just Core, that's ok. One application I'm using TurnKey Linux for is kind of a "build bot" for mingw-cross-env (mxe.cc), which just needs TurnKey Core and GCC (and a few other easy to install dependencies). I thought about pulling a request for such a build bot, or sharing the resulting VM, but since it's really straightforward to just use Core (a few apt-get commands is all that is needed), I haven't bothered.

--
Bart

So unless you are using Core as the basis for your appliance then you won't be able to move to the new appliance yet anyway.

Secondly AFAIK the v12.x series will eventually be available in both Debian and Ubuntu based appliances. The current v12.0RC is Debian based and while it contains updated TKL components (hence the v12.x version number) the packages themselves (ie from Debian 6.0/Squeeze repo) are actually pretty close to the current Ubuntu 10.04/Lucid (basis of TKL v11.x) package versions (Squeeze was frozen not long after Ubuntu 10.04 was released and Ubuntu is drawn from Debian). So whilst there may be stability improvements and bugfixes (generally Debian does this better than Ubuntu because of the much longer testing phase of development) there won't be significantly newer versions of software available in the TKL v12.x Debian based appliances (aside from software installed from upstream).

New v12.x Ubuntu appliances will come AFAIK but they will probably be quite a few months away.

So I would suggest that you decide whether you want to switch to Debian based appliances, or stick with Ubuntu based ones. If you are happy to switch then hopefully they will be released soon, although I would assume that the TKL guys will release the other appliances as RC too. OTOH if you wish to stick with Ubuntu based appliances then I'd hold tight and be patient because it'll probably be a while away.

[edit] If this Ubuntu/Debian thing is confusing and/or you're not really sure what the differences are have a look at this blog post by Alon and probably this post by me (and the following comments).

Since it's now been 2 months, I am wondering whether this RC will be declared final. Or are there any issues preventing that? I'd like to reinstall my TurnKey based VMs using the new version, but I don't feel like doing it twice.

I'd just make a start now. The first batch of releases may be just around the corner, but the guys are still working on the alpha release AFAIK and they don't do ETAs (release when done production cycle). I find it frustrating at times too, but the devs don't like breaking promises, so don't make them.

Besides migration to the new appliances should be relatively straight forward using TKLBAM.

Sounds like your experience hasn't been great. and that definitely wouldn't be very reassuring for you as a potential customer. 

Not to try to make excuses for the guys but they have been extremely busy of late with the release of v12.1, closely followed by the migration of all source to GitHub, the release of TKLDev, migration and backend update for the Hub (possibly the source of your issues) and the start of work on v13.0...

So other than email(s); what other support mechanism(s) have you tried? Hub Feedback? Posting here on the forums? (I apologise if I missed it) Lodging an Issue on the TKL Dev tracker (on GitHub)? I do vaguely recall someone posting about a similar issue some time recently but I'm sure they got sorted out...

Also IIRC support@turnkey is only for users with support contracts (would explain why your email went unanswered) - a post in the support forum is generally your best intial point of contact. I try to answer all posts within a day or 2 (although don't always make it...) and can get the ear of the devs if your issue goes unresolved for more than a few days after that...

Also note that the Business plan (for "real business") includes phone support as well... (Although obviously unreasonable cost for a trial of TKL).